Interview: CMA Executive Tiffany Kerns
Tiffany Kerns is the Senior Vice President of Industry Relations & Philanthropy for the Country Music Association. She joined CMA in 2013 after working a plethora of highly riveting positions ranging from athletic recruiting for Philip Fulmer at the University of Tennessee, to being on the 2008 presidential campaign for Senator Chris Dodd, to working for the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation. Highly engaging, thoughtful, inquisitive, and kind - Tiffany was someone I would have spoken to for hours. We touch on the keys to bettering both yourself and the people around you, how a diversity of occupations has allowed her to show up better to her job and her life, the importance of a role model, and the benefits of donating your time. We begin talking about how Tiffany ultimately ended up in the role that she is in today…
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TK: The CMA opportunity presented itself specifically through the Cystic Fibrosis foundation. And I thought, you know what, this is interesting and it actually allows me to go back into what I would, you know, venture to say is entertainment, because the reality is. I think politics and athletics are a part of entertainment. So I thought, how great, I could go into entertainment and do something completely different while also making sure that I kept the foundation or the community part of what I was doing intact. So that was nine years ago, and my job has changed essentially every two years, which is really the only reason that I could have been, and still am, at CMA, because I'm a very curious person and I like to stretch and expose myself to things that make me highly uncomfortable. And learning doesn't intimidate me, it actually excites me, it fuels me. So CMA has been able to do that in a wide variety of ways.
I started out with a foundation, and then started really being engaged with our EDU program, which was transitioning students to careers, so I loved the career pathway. Then I started overseeing industry relations, which is, you know, our 6000 + members that all make their living in country music. I get to wake up every day thinking about how I can pour into them so the industry is better. And I can do that in a wide variety of ways depending on who the professional is. So if it's a tour manager, I have a specific set of benefits and skills that I can pour into them. If they're a hair and makeup artist, it's completely different. If they're an artist, it's completely different. So I love that every day is unique because we serve so many audiences.
And CMA is such an interesting organization because there is this not for profit membership trade association. So we say by sheer nature of what we do, we wake up every day trying to move the industry forward, growing country music making sure that country music is available and is thriving. That’s what we do. The ways in which we do that are things that most people reference like CMA fest, the CMA Awards, other awards and honors, but the reality is that those are initiatives and events that support our greater mission- which is carrying forth and keeping country music strong. So I've absolutely loved working at CMA. I think that the people are what makes the industry so incredible. I think country music is something like a family, and I don't like using the family metaphor because look, not every family is good. But I would say that there is a true collaboration that you have comrades in the industry. I think that we're trying to even shift still, because when I came on board it felt very competitive, and competitive is good, but it doesn't, and it shouldn't, be at the expense of others.
And so I think as long as we're thinking about: How do we build community? How do we make sure there's connection? How do we all advance, not just one of us, but how do we all move forward? And so I think that's the most exciting part of what I do right now. I still sometimes pinch myself because I wake up every day really loving what I do. It doesn't mean that I don't wake up frustrated and it's not really hard. But at the core of what I do it’s such a dream job.
OK: I've heard time and time again from people that are in the country music space in particular that it is such a tight knit community, especially in Nashville, which I think is really unique because, as you mentioned, I don't think it's the same across the board with other genres and other cities. So I'm sure it feels nice to know that you're doing a large part in that, even just with your job day to day.
Do you feel like having had experience in such different pockets of entertainment, as you were saying, has better suited or better prepared you for the role that you're in currently?
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TK: I think it's better prepared me for life, which in turn better prepares me for the role that I currently play. When moving from athletics to politics people were like ‘Oh my gosh, how did you even do that?’ but, they were transferable skills. How you interact with athletes is exactly how you interact with politicians, who are very similar to country artists. Anybody that holds themselves up a bit higher and has a team supporting them are actually all very similar. Yeah. I think executives that have assistants honestly interact very much like celebrities. The minute you have someone supporting you I think that there is just this thing that shifts where you start to depend on other people and whatnot. So yes, I think having exposure was a really good thing and it makes you a critical thinker.
I was talking to a manager and her artist and she was saying, you know, we've got to go on a radio tour, but we don't know how to make radio shows more than just showing up at a radio station. And I said when a politician comes to a market, they have already put someone in the field. So my job was to go to a city two to three days before the senator got there, and I would go to places like schools or large employers, though typically those are hospitals or other large businesses. I would figure out, how do I connect with the core group at the hospital? So you typically asked like, you know, what's important to the nurses? Then you talk to one nurse and then there's 10 nurses, and then there's 20 around the table, and you're like, ‘Man, you know the Senator that I work for? He/she really believes in the stuff you're talking about’, like my job was to start laying the foundation.
And so I was saying to this artist and their manager, tell me a little bit about this artist and lo and behold, she said, ‘Well, her mom has been a nurse for 45 years’ and I said so go to the hospital, have her do a little showcase and let the entire hospital buzz about her. You're already going to be there for radio, then when you get to go on radio, the artist gets to say this morning I played for our first responders and then you're connecting to the community in a way that's not just music.
I'm a real firm believer that when the music is great, that’s awesome, but most people fall in love with the person. So I advise them to enter these markets and just crush while you're there. Don't just be on the radio. I would only know to think that way having had prior experience elsewhere.
I love anybody that says they’ve only ever wanted to be in music, but I encourage you to go sit on a board in another industry because you just learn so much. Yeah, I think it's so important that I still get to flex my muscles in other spaces, like I sit in a think tank in DC that has nothing to do with anything that I do. But I love hearing how people problem-solve and critically think about coming to a solution being exposed to other really brilliant professionals and executives. So I would just encourage no matter what field you're in to flex your muscles and your brain in another area because that will benefit you tenfold.
OK: I love that take. I've never been given that exact advice before, but it is really interesting in the sense that things are a lot more interconnected than they appear on their face. At least that's what I've thought before. I'm a psychology major in addition to music business, so the notion that people are generally the same across the board is fascinating to me. And it does make a lot of sense how comparing politicians to higher level athletes to musicians comes together. Stepping back and looking at the big picture and just knowing how people work is important skill in life itself and in careers
TK: Olivia, because you're a psychology major. I would sell the hell of that anytime you're interviewing anywhere. I would say I am uniquely curious about people, and I feel like when I'm in a room I'm just so interested in how human connection works and watching behaviors. I don't think enough people know how to do it but even less know how to talk about it. I was really fortunate that when I was at CFS, my boss was a retired CIA agent. And I had to do six months of training with her, and she essentially made us learn a lot of the skills that they were teaching agents. So she said, if you really want someone to recognize you, show up and let yourself be seen by them at least three times because the third time they assume they know you, right? So when you walk up and you're like, ‘Oh, it's so good to see you again!’ They automatically think they've already met you. It was a tactic I used all the time when I was doing fundraising. She also would say you know, look at eyes, look at body language - it's about being self aware, but it's also about picking up other people’s actions. I just think that we're actually very predictable as humans, and I don't think that there's enough people that spend the time actually being curious about human behavior.
OK: I completely agree. I also tend to think that people show a lot more about themselves than they're even aware of based on only a few interactions. Yeah, I find that stuff all very cool. So it's been nice to have both interests, I think music and psychology go hand in hand in a lot of ways.
I know that you play a role in the CMAS Women's Leadership Academy - what advice would you give to any young woman, myself or anyone else, who’s wanting to enter into the music business?
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TK: Oh, there's so much Olivia. There's so much I would say. I'll give you a few things that are just really important to me.
I think that it's really important to find a woman. A woman who inspires you, a woman that you aspire to be; and it doesn't have to be a supervisor, but it should be someone that you can call, even if you tend to think differently than them. They can challenge you. They can tell you no and you don't fight against it. I think that having someone like that is really important for a wide variety of reasons. But I think the most important thing is that if more women have other women in their corner that really appreciate one another and talk about each other's accomplishments, then they're likely to have more of those. The more women that we can be lifting up I think the better off we are. So I actually have several. I'm very, very lucky and oftentimes I will call on them and say I'm really not sure about this decision that I want to make. And they really do help guide me, they ask questions, and it’s not ever seen as ‘you should know the answer to that’ And I think that's what's really important is finding a mentor and a tribe that can really push you to think deeply.
I would also say you should have a MENtor. Find a really good man, because if men are still in rooms where women aren't, you want a man saying and speaking incredible things about you, right? So I think it's just as important to make sure that you have a really good man in your corner. I'm really fortunate that Joe Galante is mine and I think the world of him. So I think having a good male figure is also important.
I think you should always pay attention to people and perspectives that are not in a room that you're in and use your influence there when you can. If I feel like someone should be in a room that isn't, I certainly want to do that. Also, if I've been nominated for something two or three times, by the third time I just say thank you so much, but can I nominate someone else? Can I encourage you to think about someone else? Always be thinking about other women that deserve to be recognized and to be lifted up, because you would have wanted that for yourself. And so I think that means having a really good network. I think that is incredibly important.
And then the last thing that I’ll say is something that I've really just come to appreciate recently, and that’s setting boundaries. Boundaries can change month to month, day to day, hour to hour but if a boundary is set I need to honor that. And I think women are just more inclined to give up on these things.
Figuring out what those boundaries are and then trying to stick to them as best as possible I think allows you to show up better for yourself and for others. And when you start to supervise people and manage them, when they give you a boundary, you need to honor that too. I ask every person on my team what their boundaries are. And it's my job as the supervisor to adhere to those the majority of the time.
OK: There was a lot said that really resonated with me, particularly about finding women that will encourage you and also challenge you. Fostering that community of women to empower other women around you is so pertinent because I feel like that can be kind of rare at times, but it's a beautiful thing when it happens.
TK: Definitely
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OK: Similarly to the original question: Why do you think it's crucial for more women to be in these leadership positions?
TK: Representation matters. And I think we see that in all forms of representation, right? It's hard to aspire to be it, or even know that you can do it, If you can't see yourself within it. So I think that there have to be all kinds of women. There have to be all kinds of perspectives and positions of power so you can inspire a generation to try to reach for it. Think about Cindy Mabe who's running UMG - there are finally women who are married with children that know they can be a label head. I mean, I think that's incredible. You look at most label heads and across all music. Generally dads don't have to give up nearly as much as what women have historically. And so I just think representation matters, period.
OK: Yeah, I completely agree. And back to what you were saying about the importance of setting up your own boundaries, in addition to listening to other people's boundaries. I found that that take was uniquely female. I don't want to make any generalizations or blanket statements, but I feel like that was such a woman's response, obviously in the best way. That's the kind of thing that having more women in leadership roles would bring to the table - a better balance. I just found that that was something that I haven't heard many people speak about enough, but it really is so important. To close out. Are there any favorite stories of yours about the impact that either you or CMA or both have had on the Nashville community?
TK: You know, I think something that feeds my soul constantly is by making sure that whatever you're doing, you’re giving back. It doesn't have to be a nonprofit, you can be in a for-profit, corporate setting, but just making sure that you're giving back in some capacity and I don't mean donating.The most critical asset one has is time. I just think about when I had oversight of CMA EDU and now I see all of these EDU students who are killing it in the industry, and it fills my cup so much because, you know, we worked really hard on making sure that these students were exposed to the industry and that they were getting real insight. I've really just loved being able to shepherd young people through both the good and tumultuous times. It's just those kinds of things. I think that everyone should be giving their time to other people. So that way, I get more out of it than I give to it, I really do.
OK: Yeah, definitely. And I know I mean, for me personally, I've taken away a lot more from this conversation than I was ever intending to. So I do appreciate it and I I agree that knowledge and time are two of the most intangible but important aspects that you can give to other people and it has a greater impact than you’d realize.
